Wagner's voice

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목록안의 메시지 1 글쓴이:JHealy6952 (jhealy6952@aol.com) 제목:Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-05 20:28:53 PST

I just heard the DVD of De-Lovely in which Cole Porter is depicted as
having a mediocre voice--apparently true in real life.The director makes the
point that composers are more interested in harmonic structure than in getting
a tune across.   Do we have any record of how good Wagner's opera voice was? 
And while I am on the subject, did Cosima ever sing publically?  

John Healy
Wagner Society of New York  .

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목록안의 메시지 2 글쓴이:REP (loIrIpaqp@Iolrqapq.com) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-05 22:11:49 PST

"JHealy6952"  wrote in message
news:20050205232826.11804.00000441@mb-m03.aol.com...
>      I just heard the DVD of De-Lovely in which Cole Porter is depicted as
> having a mediocre voice--apparently true in real life.The director makes the
> point that composers are more interested in harmonic structure than in getting
> a tune across.   Do we have any record of how good Wagner's opera voice was?
> And while I am on the subject, did Cosima ever sing publically?
>
> John Healy
> Wagner Society of New York  .

I don't know about Porter and Wagner, but it is important that a composer is
able to properly intonate. It's true that quality of singing is not
important so long as the notes are recognizable. Brahms, for example, had a
somewhat grotesque voice, high-pitched as a young man and effeminate, which
he was very much aware and embarrassed of. He practiced his own exercises to
train his vocal chords into a lower range, but by the time he was
middle-aged his voice was quite hoarse. A great composer, none-the-less.

It would be interesting to know what range Wagner's voice was. I seem to
remember hearing that he was a bass-baritone, but I may be thinking of
Pfitzner (who, if I remember correctly, sang well enough to perform).

REP

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목록안의 메시지 3 글쓴이:Laon (praxis@presto.net.au) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-06 01:05:53 PST

He really liked to sing Mime; did it well, apparently.

(There are enough references to this, that they make something of a
case for the idea that Wagner in some ways identified with his
character Mime.)

But that would suggest a tenor voice.


Of course he was probably ready to perform and sing every one of his
parts, from Br nnhilde to Fafner. I seem to remember an account of him
performing Elsa once, the walk to the church, though of course he
wouldn't have to sing for that bit.

Still, Mime was a bit of a speciality for Wagner, and that might make
him a tenor.

Cheers!


Laon

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목록안의 메시지 4 글쓴이:REP (loIrIpaqp@Iolrqapq.com) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-06 15:23:57 PST

"Laon"  wrote in message
news:1107680749.001433.83380@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> He really liked to sing Mime; did it well, apparently.
> (There are enough references to this, that they make something of a
> case for the idea that Wagner in some ways identified with his
> character Mime.)
>
> But that would suggest a tenor voice.

Perhaps I was wrong on both counts -- I can't find anything to suggest
Pfitzner was a singer. The idea of Wagner being a tenor is interesting. As
middling as WAGNER the movie seemed, it's hard to disassociate Richard
Burton's deep, grating voice from Wagner's deep, grating personality.

REP

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목록안의 메시지 5 글쓴이:Ralph (NoSpam285@semq.com) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-06 16:57:08 PST

"REP"  wrote in message
news:hGxNd.14334$uc.3674@trnddc08...
 > I can't find anything to suggest
> Pfitzner was a singer. The idea of Wagner being a tenor is interesting. As
> middling as WAGNER the movie seemed, it's hard to disassociate Richard
> Burton's deep, grating voice from Wagner's deep, grating personality.

Kobbe's Opera Book (1987 edition) describes Pfitzner as having been a singer
as well as a composer.

Ralph

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목록안의 메시지 6 글쓴이:REP (loIrIpaqp@Iolrqapq.com) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-06 17:44:17 PST

"Ralph"  wrote in message
news:E1zNd.3701$wK.2267@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "REP"  wrote in message
> news:hGxNd.14334$uc.3674@trnddc08...
>  > I can't find anything to suggest
> > Pfitzner was a singer. The idea of Wagner being a tenor is interesting. As
> > middling as WAGNER the movie seemed, it's hard to disassociate Richard
> > Burton's deep, grating voice from Wagner's deep, grating personality.
>
> Kobbe's Opera Book (1987 edition) describes Pfitzner as having been a singer
> as well as a composer.
>
> Ralph

Hurray! Perhaps it's just that information on Pfitzner is startlingly hard
to find these days, which is too bad since I'd rank Der arme Heinrich up
there with any of Strauss's more middling operas and Palestrina as a genuine
masterpiece.

REP

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목록안의 메시지 7 글쓴이:Derrick Everett (mimirswell@hotmail.com) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-07 07:21:37 PST

Really?  I found 'Der arme Heinrich' deadly dull.  A bit like 'Guntram'
but without the tunes.

--
Derrick Everett

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목록안의 메시지 8 글쓴이:Ralph (NoSpam285@semq.com) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-07 08:47:56 PST

"Derrick Everett"  wrote in message
news:1107789692.658882.151210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Really?  I found 'Der arme Heinrich' deadly dull.  A bit like 'Guntram'
> but without the tunes.
>
> --
> Derrick Everett
>

And one critic has described Pfitzner's Palestrina, I'm paraphrasing here...
It's like Parsifal, only minus the jokes.

Ralph

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목록안의 메시지 9 글쓴이:REP (loIrIpaqp@Iolrqapq.com) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-07 11:13:51 PST

"Derrick Everett"  wrote in message
news:1107789692.658882.151210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Really?  I found 'Der arme Heinrich' deadly dull.  A bit like 'Guntram'
> but without the tunes.
>
> --
> Derrick Everett

Dull is a good way to describe it, but it has its moments. I'm not fit to
judge it dramatically since my German is elementary and I've never found an
English libretto but it does make for an enjoyable listen. Since the
orchestration and harmonic palette is so similar to Parsifal, I find it
makes for good background music to spice up reading the newsgroup or other
everyday tasks -- it's like listening to Parsifal without being distracted
by all the infectious motives -- that almost sounds like an insult, come to
think of it, but it's not. Schreker's Irrelohe is another mediocre opera
like that, substituting well for Strauss's Salome and Elektra when you're
sick of those but want much of the same.

"Auf greune wipfel" is probably the highlight of Heinrich, and its finale is
almost as mystical and spiritual as Parsifal's. Overall I'd rank it
musically up there with Strauss's Danae, Guntram and Intermezzo, but nowhere
near the likes of Die Frau, Capriccio, Rosenkavalier, etc. in terms of
quality, or Elektra in terms of importance, but it's better than Helena and
Friedenstag if you ask me.

REP

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목록안의 메시지 10 글쓴이:Mike Scott Rohan (mike.scott.rohan@asgard.zetnet.co.uk) 제목:Re: Wagner's voice View this article only 뉴스그룹:humanities.music.composers.wagner 날짜:2005-02-07 10:31:07 PST

The message 
from "REP"  contains these words:

{snip}

> Hurray! Perhaps it's just that information on Pfitzner is startlingly hard
> to find these days, which is too bad since I'd rank Der arme Heinrich up
> there with any of Strauss's more middling operas and Palestrina as a genuine
> masterpiece.

I haven't heard "Heinrich" in full, but I agree, Palestrina is indeed
very rich musically. It takes itself infernally seriously, though,
especially in the Council act; I was reminded of Mathis der Maler,
another noble work but a very long sit-through. I miss the sparkle (!)
and variety I find in Wagner, and even, up to a point, in something like
Die Frau ohne Schatten or Daphne.

Pfitzner was also a fine accompanist, by the way; I think, though I
could be mistaken, that very late in his life he recorded some of his
songs with Hotter, and that they are or were available on the Preiser
label. Perhaps you know more than I do.

Cheers,

Mike

-- 
mike.scott.rohan@asgard.zetnet.co.uk

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